How the Bronze Age Collapse destroyed Mycenaean civilization, and plunged Athens into a dark age that lasted 500 years.

 

 

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There are now 30 comments on pg 137. Death of a Civilization.
What are your thoughts?
  1. STM says

    A great civilization died of climate change because the institutions kept doing what they always did. Thank the gods that never happens in our time.

  2. B.J. says

    Good farmland can be a bad thing. (Egypt from this time period agrees with me, even though they managed to sorta keep the lights on during all this.)

  3. Quinch says

    As a bit of class discussion – if unburdened by tradition and inertia, what could the institutions have done to forestall, mitigate or even benefit from the changes in the climate?

    • Well, either they invent better civil engineering, or they order the population to spread out into empty areas to reduce the water load on any given acre of land, or they just start a big enough war to delete a neighboring city, and then claim it’s water rights as their own.

      Or MAYBE something to do with factory-hunting or factory-fishing? might be worth a try.

  4. Jerry C Birchmore says

    Nice shot at the Washington Post.

    • I’ve read conflicting takes on the ‘Bronze Age Collapse.’ The latest I read before this page was rather that it was just a shuffling of norms over a few decades, and that having a dozen cities across 2000 miles have collapses in that time wasn’t that weird. It just looks like a lot when we narratively link it all together.

      Can I ask some of your sources?

      • I’m presuming you meant to ask me. If you look just below the post, you should see a pull-down for further reading that will provide cites to a bunch of books and articles I found useful. Let me know if it’s not working on your device, I’ve been slowly adding these to various posts, and plan to have at least one for every topic that’s covered. And I’m going to try to add them as I go from here on. But it’s kinda pointless if it’s not working on people’s computers/phones/whatnot.

        Frankly, I was expecting a lot more pushback on this one. What scholarship there was on this had been all over the place for a while, and popularized histories love to make the Bronze Age Collapse seem like a big mystery. But as with so much else, cross-disciplinary studies in the past couple of decades have made much clear that had been hazy, and undermined much that had been received wisdom.

        For example, the Mycenaeans, Hittites, and other civilizations of the late Bronze Age Aegean kept really good records of their internal governmental doings, and the various kinds corresponded with each other on the regular about what was going on, in real time. And not all of those records were destroyed. When you piece together their contemporary accounts, along with modern rigorous archaeology, you get a very clear picture of governments that kept on doing what they were doing right up until all of a sudden they weren’t. They were still recording their daily activities, sending official envoys and traders literally right up to the flames. And it happened to everyone, everywhere, all at once. (Around either 1200 or 1190, depending on who you ask. 1200 is more usual, so I went with that one. Either way, it was sudden.)

        It wasn’t caused by a massive invasion of Indo-European charioteers or mysterious Sea Peoples. That all came after the collapse, not before. The early raiding was very like the Vikings, with boatloads of Aegean traders opportunistically shifting to piracy and beachhead assaults on their former trading partners, once there was no organized resistance. And those raids mostly focused on the wealthier towns of the Levant, who still actually had stuff worth grabbing. As for the Sea Peoples, there was nothing mysterious about them—they were mostly dispossessed people from the Mycenaean Greek mainland and islands. Not raiders, but common folks fleeing from the destruction of their cities. Definitely common folks, too, the stuff they brought with them was the most basic stuff of farmers looking for a new place to settle. The Egyptians had to fight off (IIRC, I’m going off the top of my head here) a couple boatloads that got pushy, and that’s where the idea of them being a wave of mysterious raiders comes from, but when you look at the names the Egyptians used for them they were obviously Mycenaeans from the islands. What the Sea Peoples really did wasn’t to try to invade anywhere by force, but instead they scattered all over the place looking to re-settle and assimilate into distant communities that hadn’t suffered as much. (Few tried to flee from one famine to another.) And for the most part, they succeeded: they moved abroad and assimilated into the communities they found.

        Then again, I could be wrong. It wouldn’t be the first time. Pushback is not just welcome here, it’s desired! If I got stuff wrong, let me know!

        • I don’t feel qualified enough to provide “pushback” on this subject, but I do feel compelled to say something.

          I find it fascinating how, just 23 years ago, I was standing in the ruins of Mycenae hearing a postdoc speak on this very subject for over an hour, and his long-story-short was “Sea people led to the collapse, because that’s all we have evidence of.” And today, over the course of 23 years, we’ve constructed a very different narrative from the same archeological evidence that existed 23 years ago.

          Amazing how the same evidence can tell far different stories, depending on the storyteller.

          • And it’s amazing how fast the consensus can shift, too!

            However, I must add that just in the past 13 years, our understanding of a lot of historical and archaeological evidence has been rocked by advances in (and simply listening to) knowledge in other disciplines.

    • “Washington Post” ?
      If you mean the picture of people in Mycenean garments in a 21st century office. That seems to be a shot at contemporary society in general, not a specific newspaper.

  5. Krenn says

    Is something wrong with the “reply” function? it seems like I can’t reply to any comment where someone else has already replied first. and I can’t reply to replies.

    • Thanks for the heads-up. Something must have updated in WordPress for no good reason? It looks like, when I click “reply” to a comment, I have to scroll down to the bottom to find the new reply box. That is just stupid. Looks like I’ll be diving into the CSS and javascript and god knows what else tonight to see wtf just happened, and try to put it back the way it was.

      EDIT: Yeah, it was WordPress’s “Jetpack” plugin that screwed it up. I’ve disabled it for the time being until I can figure out a fix.

      • That isn’t intentional? In that case, I have to point out that on my devices, the comment box is still at the bottom of the comments section and not beneath the comment I am replying to.

  6. Andrew Farrell says

    Would you be willing to share some links to the sources you’re drawing from?

    I have been reading this comic for a while. I have found myself relying on the parts about neuroscience and memory. I would like to read more deeply and check that I’ve not misled myself in my interpretation.

    • There should already be a pull-down for further reading just below the post. Let me know if it’s not working on your device, I have only tested the code on my own. (I’ve added “further reading” bits to several other posts, and am slowly working my way through.)

      I’m also slowly adding pull-down transcripts to all the pages, to make them more accessible for those with vision challenges or who want to machine-translate. Lord what I wouldn’t give to just add a wiki section at the bottom of each page where I could crowdsource the transcriptions to my (astonishingly brilliant and good-looking) readers.

  7. Banichi says

    I for one appreciate the earworm. I wonder how the Mycenaean’s would feel about the proposition that that which doesn’t kill one can only make one stronger?

    • Flipside of that saying is how there are plenty of things which don’t make you stronger, and continuing to chase those sunk costs will eventually get you killed.

  8. JJ says

    Nathan, you alive there buddy?

    • Seconding this message. I hope your studies of history are going well, and I hope to hear again from you soon.

    • Just adding to the check-in. It is now January 5, 2025. Between X, Bluesky, Facebook, and Patreon, Nathan’s most recent post appears to be on Facebook on December 9, 2024. Instagram won’t show me anything without an account so I don’t know if there is something more recent there.

      Hopefully nothing bad has happened to the guy.

  9. Mike Cody says

    And here it is March 1, no word from our fearless leader.

  10. I’m alive! I’m alive! Apologies, but work and home life got the best of me and I’ve barely slept for over a year. The bags under my eyes have bags.

    I’ve posted some updates on Patreon to let people know I’m still working on the comic, with a few previews of what’s coming up. I had this whole topic fully outlined before posting this page, so it’s really just a matter of getting the rest of the pages drawn. Easy for me to say, but…

    • Glad you’re not dead! Just getting caught up myself after a few years. Really enjoyed the James Wilson biography. What fascinating character and what an interesting glimpse at how even recent, relatively well-documented history is often distorted, mischaracterized, or fully fabricated in the public mind.

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